Kathy Harvey (00:05):
Welcome to The Application, the podcast series from Saïd Business School, featuring some of the extraordinary personalities who were offered a place on the executive MBA here at Oxford University. I'm Kathy Harvey as Associate Dean, I've been involved with the people who've embarked on this journey for over half the 20 years since the programme was established. This is my chance to reconnect with them and to hear more about their struggles and their achievements, personal and professional, and to learn the leadership lessons we can all take from these inspiring alumni.

Ruth Hopkins (00:45):
Music uses lots of different softer skills. You really have to listen to the whole of the group you're observing, so it provides a real opportunity to collaborate without there needing to be specific leadership.

Kathy Harvey (01:04):
Hello. It's a pleasure to be joined for this episode of The Application podcast by musician Ruth Hopkins. Ruth directs the Cantu Ensemble, a group of 16 musicians and dancers who work in schools and communities in the UK with children with special needs. Ruth trained as an opera singer, but her musical profile is broad. She is a pianist, she's a violinist, she's a flautist, and she's performed in Europe in a variety of settings. Everything from museums to concert halls, and now of course in classrooms to children. Ruth as a music scholar, as an undergraduate at Oxford, which I believe means that you have to sing for your supper and perform for other people and wear a funny gown. I understand. And Ruth, your career is such a world away from the study of macroeconomics and taking accounting exams. So I wonder why you decided mid-career to subject yourself to two years of studying for an executive MBA. What on earth made you do that?

Ruth Hopkins (02:07):
Well, I'd set up a music business and I was pretty much self-taught and I felt had quite a good instinct of what was working and wasn't working, but I wanted to have more of an impact and I wanted to understand actually a more business focused approach to how we could work. And the EMBA seemed like the perfect opportunity to explore different ways of working going forward.

Kathy Harvey (02:30):
Were you always intending to go back to your career working with children with special needs, or did you dream of earning more money and going and doing something more commercial afterwards?

Ruth Hopkins (02:43):
Well, it's a funny one because before I went to music college, I actually worked in the city as a headhunter for four years. So I'd done the more commercial side of things. And whilst it was enjoyable and an amazing experience at the time, it really made me believe that I wanted to go into music. And so once I'd made that transition in my early twenties, I knew that's what I wanted to do for my career. And the EMBA I saw as an opportunity of going further with my music rather than a transition back.

Kathy Harvey (03:12):
That's really interesting because many people are looking towards a career transition when they take time out to study, but you were looking to, in a sense, amplify what you were doing. I wonder if we could go back a little bit to your own childhood. You work with children now, but tell us a little bit about the family you came from.

Ruth Hopkins (03:33):
Yeah, so my family were really interested in music but weren't musicians themselves. My mom was a biology teacher and then she ended up working with my father on a small business they ran together and they really supported my music education. And ever since I can remember, I'd be listening to the radio going, oh, I want to learn the violin. And finally when I was seven, we found a teacher who would teach me. And throughout school I was very lucky to get lots of musical opportunities and they really let me pursue that and they gave me the opportunities to do other things, but I never felt that music was something that wasn't a serious career. They wanted me to make my own decisions about where my future would go.

Kathy Harvey (04:17):
Interesting. And did they ever expect you to become a full-time musician or become an opera singer, which of course was your first aim?

Ruth Hopkins (04:26):
Yeah, I think it's an interesting one because everybody knows how competitive it is to become a musician and lots of people aspire to it. And when you actually are earning a living from it, you think, wow, I'm actually doing this. There was a moment when I was training at music college where I remember my parents coming to listen to me in a competition and I could just see they were like, wow, this actually sounds really good, and Ruth could do this. And that was a lovely moment thinking, well, okay, now where will this go?

Kathy Harvey (05:01):
I know that you considered having a full-time performing career with adults, not necessarily working with children, and then something happened in your own family life, which made you change your mind about that and think carefully about what you did next.

Ruth Hopkins (05:16):
Yeah, so just after I graduated from Oxford as an undergrad, my dad was seriously ill and nearly died and as a side effect of his illness, he had to have his leg amputated. And so I was 21. Suddenly my life completely changed and we were starting to understand what a life with disability would look like. So as I was training at music college to become a performer, there were opportunities to get different sorts of training, and I won a place on the live music now scheme where you get opportunities to train in how to do therapeutic music workshops with severely disabled children and people living with dementia. And I was off to fellowship to do postgraduate study, and I really got really in-depth knowledge about how music can have a dramatic impact on people with neurodiversity and how it can help therapeutically with physical disability as well.

Kathy Harvey (06:14):
So your father's illness prompted you to really think about how you would formulate your future career?

Ruth Hopkins (06:21):
Yeah, I think when something like that happens and changes somebody's life so much, you start thinking about, well, what if that happened to me because my dad was totally fine, and then one day he collapsed. And so it really made me think, wow, you only have one chance to do what you want to do, so I'm going to go for a music career and if it doesn't work out, I can always do something else. But I really think you should live your life as though you've got maybe 10 years left. So you've got an urgency, you want to get everything done that you want to do, but you're not going to make crazy decisions because you've only got a little bit of time. And I really feel like I've lived my life like that so far and I hope I continue to as well.

Kathy Harvey (07:04):
You always come across as full of enthusiasm and an optimism. Is that what you are like underneath?

Ruth Hopkins (07:12):
Yeah, I think I am an optimistic pessimist. I think you have to realise that the glass is simultaneously half full and half empty. And I hink my colleagues always find it surprising when I'm organising an event, I'm always thinking about what could go wrong to make sure that I've planned for it, but I'm convinced that it's going to go well. And I think if you navigate life like that, if you're more of a realist with a situation, you can afford to be more positive because you've done the background preparation to be able to enjoy things.

Kathy Harvey (07:48):
You are working with lots of different kinds of children in different settings. I know at the moment, and I know you work with adults as well, but I want to concentrate on this for a bit because I think many of us understand or we think we understand the power of music, but how is that demonstrated with children who have particular special needs, and is the effect temporary or can you actually see a long-term effect through working with children through the medium of music?

Ruth Hopkins (08:22):
Yes. So I mean, music generally gives you the opportunity to demonstrate skills in a non-academic environment, and it provides people who maybe won't thrive so much in an academic environment, sort of a blank canvas to be able to explore things. And I really think of music at every level. It should be thought of as play and it's exploration and it's discovery. And for instance, I work with a lot of children who will never be able to speak, and you'll find because music developed in humans is a pre-verbal skill. These children may be far, far more musical than some of the children in mainstream schools that I would work with. And you're giving them a platform to show their skills, and there's no expectation that you have to go down a specific route to get the correct answer. So that's really freeing. And in my own creative practise, it's lovely to see the impact that music can have on children and how that can reflect and how you can take that into other settings, having that freedom and playfulness to explore.

Kathy Harvey (09:35):
At Oxford, at Said Business School, we do experiment a little bit with music and management or music and leadership, and we sometimes ask people to conduct a choir and see how their nonverbal communication affects the performance of others. Have you experimented with doing anything like that with adults and because we all become so much more scared of being ourselves and being creative as we get older?

Ruth Hopkins (10:04):
Yes. So as part of my time at the business school, I couldn't help but try and get the other course mates in my cohort involved in performances, and it became a thing every module that I would put together, either a folk band or a choir, and I got people involved who thought they'd never perform in public. So whether you were a seasoned musician as a hobby or you had a go at playing the maracas, everybody who wanted to got the chance to be involved. I think it was really interesting to see how that made our cohort bond in a different way. It brought people together who were in different industries, and the power of music sort of gave us a different way of interacting, which was lovely.

Kathy Harvey (10:52):
We do talk occasionally about the power of music to inspire people in a management setting, in a business setting where leaders have to think about how they motivate people, but how easy is it, do you think to get people to understand that that emotional pull, that nonverbal appeal to something which isn't just a management instruction or a conversation can make a real difference?

Ruth Hopkins (11:25):
I think that music uses lots of different softer skills that people aren't necessarily aware that they're using at the time they are. That you really have to listen to the whole of the group. You're observing your hearing with your eyes and your ears and with people's body language to work together as a team to create a common goal. And it's something that is very much the sum is greater than the parts. So it provides a real opportunity to collaborate in this very subtle way without there needing to be specific leadership. And I think music is such an innate skill and everyone realises that's the goal that you are working towards together. It's a beautiful, playful sound. I think that it has a massive power to bring people's teamwork skills together very naturally.

Kathy Harvey (12:23):
Well, it might be a beautiful sound from you, Ruth, but I'm not sure it would be a beautiful sound from me, though. I know you were very, very persuasive with some of your classmates getting them to do things, but I'm not sure you'd be the same with me. I must say that music is a mystery to me.

Ruth Hopkins (12:42):
Well, I work in inclusive music making, so I wanted to include you today.

Kathy Harvey (12:47):
Oh dear.

Ruth Hopkins (12:47):
I bought one of my favourite instruments that I discovered when I was singing in a festival in Spain, and it's called a Shruti Box.

Kathy Harvey (12:55):
A Shruti Box, yes.

Ruth Hopkins (12:57):
So they're originally from India, but they're very popular in the early music scene, which I work in as a way of creating a drone, sort of a bit like the bagpipes or something, which you can sing over. So as we're in the studio without piano, I thought you could be my accompaniment. Right. Okay. So here it is. So if you hold it on your lap, actually,

Kathy Harvey (13:19):
Right. Okay. Let me give it a go.

Ruth Hopkins (13:22):
So if you turn it around, turn it around the other

Kathy Harvey (13:25):
Way. This is where we're going to try something a little bit different. Don't stop listening. What I can see actually is a set of levers with letters on.

Ruth Hopkins (13:35):
So first of all, check that the levers have the notes D and a open, there's little holes, and that will let the air through to create the

Kathy Harvey (13:43):
Pitches. Yes, yes. Okay. Just the two at the top. And so as this is not in vision, I think I should say I'm holding the handle, it's really like a little handbag or small briefcase with these levers with letters on, and I'm staring at them in a slightly nervous way. What do I do now? So turn it around so it's

Ruth Hopkins (14:06):
Facing me and put it on your lap. Yep. So this way around, put it on your lap. Okay. Now there's a little hook at the back of it near your body and you just unhook. Perfect. And now this creates the bellows. So a little flap has opened up

Kathy Harvey (14:22):
Like an accordion.

Ruth Hopkins (14:23):
Exactly. Right. Yeah. So you just squeeze it and you just Oh, perfect. You're a natural. So you've just got to keep that going

Kathy Harvey (14:32):
Now all the time.

Ruth Hopkins (14:33):
Yeah. Don't get RSI. That's the biggest danger. You'll play it fine.

Kathy Harvey (14:38):
Slow, fast. Any other instructions? I

Ruth Hopkins (14:40):
Think it's sort of therapeutically

Kathy Harvey (14:43):
Rhythmic. Oh, in a magisterial manner.

Ruth Hopkins (14:46):
Yeah, exactly. So you just keep it going with enough pressure that the tone is constant. So a bit more.

Kathy Harvey (15:51):
Oh, Ruth, you are absolutely fabulous. I learned something really important then. I really wanted to do my best for you. I was watching you. I was worried I would slow down. It was a real leader follower message.

Ruth Hopkins (16:09):
You did a fantastic job.

Kathy Harvey (16:11):
I've passed my probationary period. Yeah. Be careful. You might have a place on the Shruti box in the band going forward. Oh no.

(16:25):
And how do you see yourself now going forward? Because when we asked you to fill in an application to become a student again and study for an executive MBA, essentially what that application does, which is really where we got the name for this podcast, what this application does is ask you to paint a picture of what you want for your future. You have the world of Arts Council grants ahead of you. You have the world of trying to fight for money as a musician to continue in the career that you've chosen. What kind of picture do you want to paint now about your future?

Ruth Hopkins (17:06):
So during the course, I really thought about how we can have more impact as an organisation. And whilst we really enjoy performing as a group, the outreach element of what we do has really become a big focus. And during the inclusive business in Africa course, I completely changed my mindset about the direction of the company. So we are now looking to set up an inclusive disability festival where disabled young people are actually co-curating the performances, and they get to have a really important say in how their experiences of music happen within that, rather than groups coming along and performing to them and them just being participants. So we are really looking to grow that festival building on lots of work and partnerships we made during the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham to make it an opportunity for children across the UK to curate music for themselves.

Kathy Harvey (18:10):
That sounds wonderful. Looking at all the people you studied with from different organisations and businesses across the world, what hope did you have for creativity and business leadership?

Ruth Hopkins (18:24):
I think in every domain to be successful, you have to be creative and you need to be versatile. And what I really wanted to gain from the business school was different perspectives and the ability to think outside the box by being challenged by people in other sectors. And that's really helped with my thinking going forward, going back to the creative industries and working with all sorts of different organisations, being able to question our approach and thinking about new ways to be creative within the creative industries.

Kathy Harvey (18:58):
Did you ever feel a bit like a fish out of water coming from such a different background to many of the people who had more traditional business careers?

Ruth Hopkins (19:07):
I think when you come back to study on a course like the emba, I think everybody feels like somebody else is going to have experiences that you don't have yourself. And everyone has a bit of imposter syndrome when they go into a new situation. I think uniquely as a musician, you spend your whole time being in a very competitive environment competing for performance opportunities. And to be successful in that domain, you have to come to terms with the fact that you can't be everything and that you should enjoy being who you are and what you can give to that creative situation. So I think that really helped me at the business school going well, I have a completely different experience and I hope I learn a lot from you, and hopefully I can give something in return as well.

Kathy Harvey (19:55):
To some people, you look as though you are a great success. You managed to get to Oxford as a young woman, you got a scholarship to study afterwards. I think you've got a scholarship on the executive MBA. I'm right in saying so to many that looks like a glittering career, even if it's not a business career, it's a glittering career in music. Where do you feel that you've stumbled and experienced failure?

Ruth Hopkins (20:23):
When Covid happened, it was an extremely weird situation to go through as a musician because you get told things are locking down, concerts are stopping, and you think, what on earth am I going to do? My whole career was based on face-to-face interactions. And that experience was liberating for me because for the first month, I thought, what on earth am I going to do? And then I thought, I've actually got lots of different skills that I can bring through my musicianship. And I ended up doing lots of digital projects applied for funding for new things. I ended up being more busy during covid I'd ever been before because I was flexible. And that made me think, well, if the worst does happen, you can always be resourceful. And that really taught me to even more so pursue the things that I really want to do and not worry about the what ifs, because you can always pivot. There's always somewhere else to go. If you are enthusiastic and passionate about what you do, people will see that in you and they'll want to work with you. And that's the most important thing.

Kathy Harvey (21:34):
Ruth, it has been a great pleasure talking to you, and I hope that I didn't do too badly with my small experiment into the world of music. Thank you so much. Thank you. And let's play out this episode by hearing a little bit more of the Cantu Ensemble. You've been listening to The Application from Oxford University's Saïd Business School. You can catch up with all our episodes wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to know more about Saïd Business School, take a look at the Oxford Answers section on our website or check out the programme pages for more inspiring stories about our executive MBA alumni. The Application is produced by Philippa Goodrich and Oxford Digital Media. I'm Kathy Harvey, associate Dean of Saïd Business School. Thank you for listening.