- I think it's about people who are focusing on solutions, who are focusing on a partnership approach, a collaborative approach, and who are listening.

- Hello and welcome to Leadership 2050, a podcast about the future of leadership and what we need to address to avert a climate crisis. I'm your host, Andrew White, from Oxford University's Said Business School, and in this episode I'm talking to Emma Howard Boyd, the chair of England's Environment Agency. This decade is the most important in terms of the shift that needs to happen if we're to meet our climate targets. And Emma Howard Boyd has been at the forefront of that here in the UK. Since 2016 she's been the chair of England's Environment Regulator. Her tenure ended in September 2022. She's also the interim chair of the Green Finance Institute, and a global ambassador for the UN's Race to Zero, and to Resilience Campaigns. What's on her leadership radar? I began by asking Emma to tell us about her background, and her journey to where she is now.

- I have a background in finance, having done a degree in law and economics, but even before that I think a lot of my early thinking around the environment came from my last two years of school where I had the huge privilege of winning a scholarship to attend a United World College on Vancouver Island, so very much living in amongst nature at a time that was pre-internet, studying alongside students from 50, around 50, 60 countries. So a fantastic environment to finish off my high school education. So after university I went into the city working on mergers and acquisitions, but very quickly realised that the broader environment was not being taken into account in that work. After a short spell sailing I had the, again, a fantastic opportunity to leave my career in finance and go off sailing for a couple of years. I came back and after a period of volunteering, working with environmental groups about to go off and do a master's in environmental economics, I was asked to start working at Jupyter Asset Management, focusing on green finance. So rather than go back and study environmental economics I had the opportunity to work in that sphere in practise.

- It sounds a really interesting, and I use the word education, a broad education into the world of finance, the world of nature, global. I'm also a sailor, and hoping to go off on a long sailing trip at some point, if life opens up that opportunity. But it seemed to give you an insight into perhaps the world we're in now where we can no longer ignore nature, we can no longer make financial decisions separate from understanding their environmental impact. And so where you started was where these two trends were starting to converge, and have ever more so converged over these last few years, I guess

- That's a really interesting reflection, and as a sailor yourself you'll appreciate that when you are living on a boat, sailing across a large ocean, you haven't got a huge amount of space to carry everything with you, and you've got to live within your means. So certainly that gave me early insight into living within means, and I suppose what really drove my desire when I came back, and we're still talking about early 90's, to make sure that whilst wanting to work within the arena of finance also to weave in that strong focus on environmental issues. And back then when I joined Jupyter Asset Management it was very much at the early pioneering stage of green finance, and here we are several decades later where finance has moved into a completely different sphere, and arguably at that stage where the environment has become, is becoming something that needs to be considered at the heart of all decision making.

- And when you talk about green finance can you give us a bit of an insight, 'cause some of our listeners may not understand that term, or may have only heard it on the periphery. So this is where financial instruments, financial interventions, are being created that specifically address environmental issues. Just talk us a little bit more about what you mean when you use the term green finance.

- I think there are two ways of framing green finance. There is greening finance, so what are the mechanisms that exist in the financial products to make sure that they are taking into account green issues. And that might be through the way they are regulated, through the disclosure requirements that we're now seeing. The other aspect of green finance is when you are actually financing green initiatives, and I think this is where we really do need to see a massive evolution of making sure that the financing that is taking place is driving the financial outcomes that are going to make a difference to climate change, and bring the different energy mix, the different engineering mix, the different responses to what we now know is vital if we're going to turn this decade of all decades into a decade of delivering on environmental and climate change outcomes.

- And, you know, we've seen a lot of progress in this space, you just have to look at the number of solar fields that surround us when we go through the countryside, or the number of wind farms onshore and offshore. The technology that's developed over the last 20-30 years has been incredible. If I were to use the word edge to represent where we are today, and you talked about this decade being the most important decade in terms of shift, what do you think needs to happen given where we are? What do we need more of? What do we need less of? Or are there really difficult decisions that need to be made that are coming for leaders both within financial institutions and the recipients of that capital as well?

- I think despite all the excellent efforts that we have seen over recent decades focusing on environmental issues we know that the science, and the outcomes of how we have been impacting the world are not taking us in the right direction, you only need to look at the excellent reports produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to see that we still have not bent the curve in terms of where we are heading, and making the right amount of difference. So this is where if we are going to get on track, and all of the signs are that this is still within our means, it's still within our bounds, we have to make sure that as many decisions that are being made right now are factoring in the long-term challenge of the climate agenda. And I think the aspect that is most often forgotten is the needing to also prepare for the climate shocks that we know are already locked in the system. So I think we've made far more progress around our net zero commitments, but as we focus in on net zero we do need to make sure that those net zero investments, changing the energy mix, changing the way we are engineering products, designing products, the emissions that are locked into that, are also getting ready for the too much, too little water that we're experiencing already, the heat waves, the really significant climate shocks that are happening around the world so that those investments that we're making towards net zero are resilient to climate change. And one of the key factors that will help both in terms of delivering emissions reductions, but also preparing for climate shocks is if we're paying good attention to nature, and nature's recovery. One of the things that I see in my work at the Environment Agency where we are specifically responsible for investing in flood schemes is where we are taking into account blue and green infrastructure alongside grey infrastructure. We can be preparing for those climate shocks, better preparing communities to the impacts of flooding, but also in some of those schemes locking in nature's recovery, and by doing that providing an environment where we can also lock in carbon emissions as well. So some fantastic schemes around the country.

- You sound very hopeful in a world where I think a lot of people are becoming increasingly anxious about the environment, about climate change. It sounds as though you see a lot of progress, you see a lot of innovations, a lot of tech, would that be a correct understanding from where you are? And what more is needed, in a sense, where are we in in that process of transformation?

- I think we have to recognise how serious the situation is in relation to climate change, but I think one of the ways of leading is recognising that difficult as it may be there is no time for complacency in worrying about whether you are an optimist or a pessimist. If we're gonna get this done, we're gonna get this done by delivering, so when I'm having my more despairing moments I find it much easier to go and look for, and seek out those projects where we are beginning to see a difference, beginning to see what is possible, and then focusing on the opportunity to scale up and work at greater pace. So I suppose my message is it's not that I'm any more or any less optimistic than anybody else, I think we have to put our energy into the possibility of solving the situation we find ourselves in.

- It's interesting listening to you. I dunno whether I'm correct in this. I hear the sailor, I hear there's somebody who's been at sea and there's no point worrying about whether you're fearful or whether you're optimistic, it's if there's a storm on the horizon you've gotta do stuff, you've gotta prepare the boat, you've got to go and make the interventions to what sails you have up. There's a pragmatism that comes through in your approach.

- Well that's interesting because although I did that massive amount of the sailing several decades ago I'm not an ongoing sailor. I love going-

- Right, okay, okay.

- On boats. But I suppose it is that, preparing for the storm. I think this is where we do need to place our efforts. And one of the books that affected me last year is a fiction book, "The Ministry of the Future" by Kim Stanley Robinson, which is set in the very, very near future, and then goes out for decades, and starts off in the mid 2020s with a significant climate event. It is a shocking first chapter to a novel, but we're already seeing those sorts of events, it's a heat wave that is taking place in India playing out right now. I was reading it last year when a heat wave that affected many, many people in Vancouver was taking place. And we know the current situation that is playing out right now has been this spring going into summer in India and Pakistan, and I think recognising that whilst that means we still need to continue with our focus on deep decarbonization, and working out how we extract carbon, we also need need to pay a huge amount of attention now to the climate shocks that are going to be, we're going to be experiencing at ever greater significance over the next few decades, and that needs to be absolutely key to how we're preparing.

- So interesting. And when you look across the landscape of leaders that you interact with, either through the Green Finance Initiative, or through the Environment Agency, which ones really stand out for you? I'm not necessarily looking for names, but what are the attributes, the characteristics, the types of decisions? Who are they as people? What are they doing as leaders that really make them more part of the solution than, I suppose, a passiveness around the status quo?

- I think it's about people who are focusing on solutions, who are focusing on a partnership approach, a collaborative approach, and who are listening as well. One of the things that we have learned through our work on flood up and down the country is you can't just go into a community and propose a solution, you've got to work with the local community to collaborate, and get the best solution that is going to work for that particular area, catchment of a river. And that may take a little bit more time, but you will solve the issue and save time if you're working in partnership. And that needs a very different skillset, which is to be able to listen as well as focus on the ideas that you have, and the technical solutions that you have to deal with climate change. I think there's also a need for boldness, and, again, I see this in many different leaders, both in the public, private and third sector who aren't waiting for the policy to come into place, or going what can we do now today to make a difference, and without necessarily knowing all the solutions, but confident that those solutions will deliver results if you experiment and innovate with others. And I think this is where almost setting off with that convention that we're going to achieve, for example a net zero commitment that by being bold in that decision, that ambition you are taking all of your partners with you, and your colleagues with you in order to achieve the results that we need.

- So there's so much in what you're saying that I want to come back to, but the first bit is listening. It's very interesting that you say that. I'm currently conducting a piece of research here at Oxford on transformation, and this is not just around climate, but the broad topic of transformation. One of the questions we have in the interview schedule is what's your superpower? What's the superpower that you see in your organisation? And I need to go back, and actually check how many times listening gets mentioned. So I can't give a percentage, but I can say over and over again listening comes through to the said to the unsaid, the ability to take into recount a broad group of people, and try and find where there is consensus. And it's interesting, it's not something that I would've thought would've been there a few years ago, but it's a word that just does come up, as you've mentioned it, over and over again.

- That's really interesting to hear, and it's so important that we pick up on the the voices that we're not hearing because often you, particularly if you're working at a community level, particularly if you're working on environmental issues, there'll be certain communities that are more vocal. And we, again, as a public sector organisation need to make sure that we're working for the country as a whole, and not just parts of it, but there's also the voices that aren't represented immediately through a human, and that's where the voice of nature, the voice of the future need to be heard as well. Are we playing enough attention on the generations to come in the decisions that we are making today?

- There's a much broader, when we say listen, it's not just to the loudest voice in the room, and not just to what they're not saying, it's also to, as you say, to nature, it's also to the future generations. It's those that don't have a voice. Have there been things that have happened to you that have given you this broader insight into what needs to be taken into account when these decisions are being made?

- I think it's as much observing issues that go into the public domain, and go up the public agenda, and wanting to appreciate what is our equivalent, for example, at the Environment Agency. I think the other work that I have done in the run up to COP 26, so the Glasgow Climate Change, climate discussions, but also as we head into COP 27, I was asked to be one of the ambassadors to the races to zero and to resilience. And because of the work that I have done on flooding, because of the work I did as the UK's Commissioner to the Global Commission on Adaptation, I have focused more on the race to resilience, and that group of nine, 10 ambassadors, I think, you spoke to one of them in a recent podcast, Paul Pullman, I found myself in a subset focusing on the race to resilience, where I was the only white representative of the global north sitting with a group representing those parts of the world that typically are in the global south, but have been experiencing climate shocks for longer, and feeling forgotten. And certainly when one of my fellow ambassadors, Sheila Patel, who lives in India, has led some dwellers international couldn't make it to Cop 26, partly because of challenges with Visas, I made a promise to her that I would channel her work into some of my interventions to make sure that the voices of the communities that she represented, which are at the forefront of the climate agenda were heard in certain rooms, on certain platforms. And I think that is something that leaders need to think about when they are representing not just themselves, their organisations, but the issues that they're dealing with. I think another person that I've observed that is representing future generations is through the work of Mary Robinson as Chair of the elders. And something that I witnessed that she did at COP 26 where she was working with one of the channels, the television channels, as an advisor as a commentator everyday was when one day she arrived with a young woman from an indigenous community in the Amazon, and live on television handed over her platform to Helena as a representative of communities that were not feeling that their voices were heard. And that was a fascinating thing to watch an elder of our community, and an elder of the world, the former president of Ireland, working with other former presidents and prime ministers, the care that she was giving to make sure that voices that were not being heard were given a platform.

- In a sense, you flipped the status and the power to be in service of others, and you allow yourself to be that conduit, that channel, to ensure that those voices are heard, either for various reasons that they may be absent, and in a very practical way build that inclusivity. So, so interesting. So if I were a CEO or a senior leader of a large business listening to this, and I wanted to do more, what would be a starting point, or what would be an acceleration? 'Cause most companies have got various initiatives underway, but given where we are now, at this point in history, what would be your advice to me? What should I be doing more of? What should I be doing less of as we move forward?

- The pace and the collaboration, and is it enough. Holding up the mirror as often as possible, easier said than done, and being kind. I think we're in an environment where sometimes the default is to shout and get angry, whereas working with organisations with compassion, and this is as much to those of us that are campaigning too, and you can campaign within organisations that remember the efforts that people have probably already made, and you never know what their backstory is, their hinterland, which is not enabling them to move as fast as possible to look at the initiatives that you're already working on, and trying to understand whether you can go 100%, and this is where we've seen some of the initiatives that organisations like We Mean Business have led by saying is it good enough to go 70%? Why not? If we're committed to it, why don't we go for 100%? And this comes back to this being a decade where we need to make as much progress as possible. I think it's also trying to understand where you can be bold as well, bold, courageous in in your leadership, and that is not easy to do, but also where if you are building collaborations, if you are building partnerships, you can perhaps build that group of allies who will support you in your boldness when you decide to make a commitment to go 100% to achieving something that you already know is the sort of thing that your organisation can be doing.

- Emma, thank you. I mean it's such a wonderful place to end this in terms of pace, boldness, collaboration, compassion, four really, really important different topics, and so much food for thought. I'm gonna end the podcast where I've ended it with all my other guests, with just the seven quick questions. You've covered some of these already, so please go back to some of those answers or refer back to them. But the first one in, is there a leader from history who inspires you?

- I want to mention a leader who isn't in history, but her leadership was, is historic, and that is Mary Robinson. I think learning from the elders, those who still have a voice, that's something that I think is really important for us to observe.

- And a leader from today who inspires you?

- And, again, I want to call out some of the younger leaders. I don't want to name them, but I think observing them and their call for action.

- Thank you. And is there a book that's made an impact on you?

- The book is "The Listening Shift" by Jamie Van Hool. I worked with Janie in relation to communications, and throughout lockdown she wrote this fantastic book that recently become an award-winning book.

- Fabulous. "The Listening Shift," I think I will have to go buy that given how much that's come up in in my own research. And when you look at the people that you're bringing into leadership roles, is there something, they have to be good at finance, they have to be good at HR, they have to be good at performance, there's all these things that are in a sense increasingly just ticking a box, but what makes them stand out? What, is there a one or two characteristics that you are looking for in those that are given responsibility within organisations?

- It's how you come to the table, how you come to the table, the presence that you have at that table, but the way you include others in your leadership. And, again, I think it's about saying, it's not all about me, it's about how I work with others, and how I make sure those voices are represented around the tables that I'm sharing.

- And then when you look to the younger generation, they're different, they're coming into this world at a different point in history, do you see things there that inspire you? Are there specific things that you notice them doing differently and seeing the world differently that really give you hope and inspiration?

- I think it is this ability to call out, and hold us to account. And, again, I think as leaders we need to seek out young voices as well, and make sure that we're hearing them earlier in the conversation.

- And then you've talked about two huge challenges of net zero and resilience, what makes you hopeful about the future?

- That despite everything that is happening right now which could be distracting us the the voice of climate is still cutting through, and the leaders that I know that have been working on this agenda are not losing focus, that's what gives me hope.

- Fantastic. And then finally where do you go for inspiration and renewal?

- I get on my bike, and I go out into nature.

- My thanks to Emma Howard Boyd. My name is Andrew White, and you've been listening to Leadership 2050, a podcast from Said Business School at the University of Oxford. If you'd like to hear more from Said Business School, exploring leadership, and how the business world is re-imagining the future, please visit Oxfordanswers.org. Leadership 2050 is produced by Eve Streeter. Original music is by Cy Beg. Our executive producer is David McGuire for Stable Productions. In the next episode, I'll be talking to Cherry Atilano, the agricultural activist and change maker who has set out to change the lives of farmers in the Philippines. Until then, many thanks for listening.